Gay marriage amendment fails: the real solution

The constitutional amendment which would have banned gay marriage was defeated in the United States Senate today, despite President Bush’s public calls in favour of it. Bush said that the institution of marriage needs taken out of the hands of “activist judges” and put back into the hands of the American people.
Except… there are [...]


The constitutional amendment which would have banned gay marriage was defeated in the United States Senate today, despite President Bush’s public calls in favour of it. Bush said that the institution of marriage needs taken out of the hands of “activist judges” and put back into the hands of the American people.

Except… there are thousands of gay couples who would like to be married – and, moreover, who consider themselves “American people”. While this may be a shock to some conservatives, an even greater thunderbolt will be that they’re not the only ones who were opposed to the amendment. Although a majority of Americans don’t agree with gay ‘marriage’, an equal majority opposed the constitutional amendment banning it. In short, most Americans would appear to be compatible with a libertarian solution to the problem! How wonderful. So what is that solution?

Marriage is a traditional institution, so people have expectations of what defines it. But it’s worth noting that expectations change, and have done, for example in respect to how many women a man should be permitted to marry simultaneously. Our definition of marriage has changed before, numerous times. Most of the same people today vehemently fighting a change of definition that would permit gay marriage are themselves subscribers to a previous change of definition which rejected polygamy (the Christian West was a minority in that regard, since most societies were polygamous). Change can be a good thing. Nevertheless, there are many people who aren’t ready to change their definition of marriage to include gay or lesbian unions, and oppose such an idea for moral reasons.

If you identify with that, then read on. Because MY not-so-humble opinion is that there is absolutely no need to redefine marriage in order to permit gay ‘marriage’. And I’ll tell you why. There are two separate parts of any marital agreement:

(a) the process of making a moral promise to another individual, possibly including a promise made to God also, and
(b) a legal contract enshrined in law predefining terms of a marital bond.

As far as the government is concerned, marriage is simply a contract (known as a marriage licence) which two individuals consent to sign when they get married. The details of their moral pledge (a) are irrelevant to and separate from that legal contract. The contract (b) refers to a number of provisions of marriage which are predefined by the government in law (for example inheritance rights and financial policies). The first part of the marital agreement is a matter of morality, not law. The second is a lawful contract, not a moral promise. One part concerns the law, the other part does not.

And therefore morality in the matter of marriage is actually not represented legally at present anyway. What each couple decide to vow to each other on their wedding day, while their guests sit in restless anticipation of the free food, is almost entirely a matter of personal preference and individual determination. So moral considerations (a), of which sexual orientation is an example, are not relevant to the terms of the marriage contract (b) as it exists in law. It is, in short, none of the government’s business who creates such a contract and with whom they create it – it the remit of government simply to honour the contracts as they exist. Morality (a) is the domain of the individual, who has the right to decide for themselves what they believe to be right and wrong, while legal contracts (b) are rightly enforced in law, no matter who they involve.

Reasonable, sensible people who consider gay marriage immoral should have no problem with the idea that legal contracts should be honoured by our legal system, and therefore it follows that they should have no problem with the idea that gay people could enter into such contracts. Thus such a person would be endorsing the civil rights which permit gay ‘marriage’ while still regarding gay marriage to be immoral.

For those who continue to disagree, I might ask what makes this kind of private decision different from any other? Matters of personal morality are the domain of the individual living in accordance with his or her own belief system; they are not within the sphere of the law or the state. I profess to believe that a number of things are immoral without wishing to make it illegal to do them. Honking in a drive-thru, for example. I may consider adultery immoral, but I don’t want to lock someone up for cheating on their spouse. I am separating morality from legality, and for good reason. Why should it be any different for the issue of homosexual unions being recognised in law?

The solution: get the government out of the marriage business. ASAP. And here’s a scenario depicting roughly how I would see it happening, were libertarian measures to be voted into place today:

1) The government repeals all laws relating to marriage and how it is legally defined, leaving individuals to create their own marital contracts.

2) Soon thereafter, law firm Lawson & Associates sees an increase in business as engaged couples request help with creating marital contracts and seek its expertise in the legalese.

3) At a company meeting, founder Leonard Lawson advises his associates and staff that they will be offering a package deal to customers which encapsulates the kind of marital contract the majority of their clients have been asking for. It will be called the Lawson Marital Covenant, and will sell for $199 including customisations.

4) Lawson & Associates is readily imitated by other law firms who wish to offer their own versions of the Lawson Marital Covenant. Some specialise in contracts which closely resemble the old government version, for traditionalists or those for whom the change was unwelcome. Others market themselves as most appropriate for Christians, or wealthy couples, or for those who see marriage as a more temporary arrangement. And several firms go into business to focus on the gay and lesbian market.

5) Lawson & Associates comes to be a major player, eventually offering several types of marital contract: the Lawson Silver Covenant for $99, the Lawson Gold Covenant for $199 and the Lawson Platinum Covenant for $249. The latter contracts can be customised to the clients’ satisfaction, while the former is a web-only generic version of the original. Other companies follow suit, and the internet comes to be a source of information, recommendations and marketing. eBay Nuptials, Yahoo Weddings and www.covenantcentral.com conspire to make the process easier.

6) The marriage marketplace becomes rich in choice with regard to the kind of contract required, encompassing those who wish to commit less to their spouse and those who wish to commit more, for a wide variety of reasons. A large percentage of couples choose a standard, generic contract with only minor changes, and a minority choose not to have a contract at all.

7) Gay people cease to be so melodramatic, conservatives learn about moral freedom and monkeys are employed by institutions of higher learning having acquired a bounteous knowledge of the Spanish language.

You will have derived a sense of skepticism from my last remark.

But perhaps today’s rejection of a constitutional amendment seeking to involve the government more in the definition of marriage is a good sign. The US Senate doesn’t like the idea. The American people don’t like the idea. Maybe we should end this silly debate with the only moral, workable solution to the problem: honour the wishes of individuals themselves on the decisions which affect their own lives.

It’s not about whether to allow or disallow gay marriage. It’s about whether it’s actually anybody else’s business in the first place!

John Wright

johnwright@libertarianreason.com

31 Comments

  1. Jessie S on June 7, 2006 | Permalink

    OMG you totally nailed this one!!! This is the most sensible thing I have read on the gay marriage thing! I have emailed this to all my friends who argue about this continually.

  2. Stevie, Belfast on June 8, 2006 | Permalink

    I am a christian and feel that gay marriage is wrong so why would I vote for it? It is wrong, so you dont vote for sonething you think is wrong. What you are saying makes no sense.

  3. John Wright on June 8, 2006 | Permalink

    Jessie- thanks for the comments! I agree of course, and think you should bookmark this blog for future reference.

    Stevie- the correct response to your belief that something is wrong is not to do that thing! The incorrect response is to try and prevent others from using the same rational judgement that you yourself used to come to that conclusion. Instead of allowing others to make choices of morality for themselves, you want to rob them of the freedom to do so, simply because of the arrogant belief that nobody else’s opinion is as valid as yours. That’s a shame, because I think you appreciate rationality enough to understand that things are right or wrong – why not allow other people the freedom you demand for yourself? I’d be interested to hear from you again on this.

  4. Mark Golden on June 9, 2006 | Permalink

    Hi John And Stephen, I’m glad to see you are allowing comments now. How can a person be married to someone of the same sex? It’s like saying a person can be married to an automobile, not what marriage was designed for. however you adequately defend allowing it to exist as contracts between people, and you correctly identify that the government would be better not to try and legislate marriage to begin with. I agree! Appreciate this blog.

  5. Anonymous on June 9, 2006 | Permalink

    THIS IS A MORAL NOT A LEGAL ISSUE.

  6. Stevie, Belfast on June 10, 2006 | Permalink

    John, I do not do the things that I don’t believe in. .You are saying that I have rational judgment, why can’t I use it to do what I believe in, including not voting for gay marriage. I understand that people disagree, that is fine. But that’s why we are fighting against gay marriage, and they are fighting for it. We are all fighting for our cause, and mine is a christian cause.

  7. John Wright on June 11, 2006 | Permalink

    Stevie- You can’t use it to deny others the right to use their rational judgement. You say you’re fighting for your cause, but actually you’re fighting against allowing others the freedom to do something which has no negative bearing on you whatsoever. That is not a Christian cause, Stevie – the theme of free will has been prevalent since Genesis Chaper One, so it seems God does not agree with you. Whether or not you think gay marriage is wrong, the point of my article is to advocate not gay marriage but freedom to decide for yourself. That you want to deny others that freedom is what I am fighting against. :-)

  8. Jeff on June 12, 2006 | Permalink

    Stevie, John’s point is that you shouldn’t make it illegal to do these things, not that they’re right or wrong. He wants to leave it to the people to make those calls and I can’t say that would be a bad thing, nor gays getting married. Not exactly the top of our social agenda right now, to stop gay people getting married.

  9. Anonymous on June 12, 2006 | Permalink

    If you want to destroy the fabric of a society then go home to ireland and do it there….. leave america to live in good morals.

  10. S Quinney on June 13, 2006 | Permalink

    Has anyone ever fully explained how civil unions for gays would undermine straight marriages? That just doesn’t make sense to me. I would think what you have suggested would be a good compromise.

  11. Rosalita Paglia, MN on June 20, 2006 | Permalink

    Your depiction of how a libertarian society may deal with marriage is fascinating. I enjoy this blog a lot!

  12. PB on June 21, 2006 | Permalink

    Hi John Wright
    Followed you over from BBC as I am looking for somebody to have an informed discussion with on the following points if possible, please. Is this ok?

    #1 Does the bible support support slavery?
    #2 Has homosexuality been proven to be genetic?
    #2 Can the bible be interpreted to support homosexuality?
    #4 Is sexuality fixed or fluid?

    Cheers
    PB

  13. John Wright on June 21, 2006 | Permalink

    PB- Sure, although it’s only partially related to the topic here. I’ll give you my take on your questions, and allow you to respond.

    1) Does the bible support slavery?
    I’m not sure that the bible is intended to be read as an endorsement or rejection of any particular thing – it certainly documents slavery, though I’m not sure you could say that 66 separate ancient texts could somehow be strung together to “support” OR condemn anything as a singular instrument in and of itself. It takes an interpretative hermeneutical approach combined with contemporary belief and teaching to do that.

    2) Has homosexuality been proven to be genetic?
    Here I believe the answer is probably ‘No’. Although neurologist Simon LeVay conducted research which showed physiological differences between homosexuals and heterosexuals, he did not prove that these were genetic differences which were present from birth. Of course that doesn’t preclude the possibility that there IS a ‘gay gene’, and we must always be open to that possibility proving itself.

    3) Can the bible be interpreted to support homosexuality?
    I don’t believe so. I also think it doesn’t specifically condemn it. Again, the bible cannot be read in the way you appear to want to read it – as a paper written to teach X, Y or Z to you, today, about homosexuality and any other number of things. The bible was written to other people for reasons of a specific historical context. For example, reading parts of Leviticus which appear to condemn homoseuxality as if they are written to us today is ludicrous – Leviticus was written for Middle Eastern Jews BC. It also condemns eating rabbit, lobster, shrimp, pork and wearing red dresses. When we go to how Jesus himself interpreted some of the Old Testament, for example in Luke, he states that the sin of Sodom was inhospitality, not, errr, sodomy.

    4) Is homosexuality fixed or fluid?
    If I get you right here, I’d say the answer is that it appears to be somewhat ‘fluid’ – people have changed sexual orientation, there appear to be degrees of sexual orientation in many people, etc.etc. But saying that it is fixed OR fluid doesn’t particularly help either the gay rights OR the anti-gay activists…. in either case the issue still to be debated is whether homosexual acts are moral or immoral, and why.

    I appreciate your visit to Libertarian Reason and hope that these quick answers are helpful. Feel free to stick around.

  14. pb on June 21, 2006 | Permalink

    John, much obliged for the courteous and informed discussion. May I continue?
    Ref your answers…
    1) Does the bible support slavery?
    John, on the face of it the bible appears to support slavery and some critics use this to dismiss its apparent teachings on homsexuality. However in four seperate places it totally condemns anyone forcing another into slavery (the death penalty is imposed in two refs); my understanding is that it was a voluntary social security net and method of reparation for debtors and thieves, but I am open to learn more.

    2) Has homosexuality been proven to be genetic?
    Your understanding here matches mine, but I am astounded at the apparent majority of educated people who believe it has been proven to be genetic, largely, I believe down to media exaggeration on current research (anything for a story) and strong media lobbying. How can a genetic aversion to sexual reproduction survive in the human gene pool, I often wonder?

    3) Can the bible be interpreted to support homosexuality?
    I believe that taken together and using the whole bible as a whole, God’s word does say homosexuality wounds him in failing his purpose for mankind. Christ also says heaven and earth will pass away but his words will go on forever; a theme oft repeated. The type of guidelines you talk about on lobster, shrimp and pork still have a strong proven public health logic behind them today. But these were under the Old Covenant of the Old Testament. The New Testament makes it very clear these things are not binding on those under the New Covenant, however homosexuality is still identified as sin numerous times in the New Testament. If you read the story of Sodom and Gomorrah in the OT you will see explicitly that gangs of gay men tried to gang rape two angels. But Christ said it would be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of Judgment than the towns which rejected his disciples and his Good News. Taken together therefore, it just does not seem logical to say the sin of Sodom was lack of hospitality. Any thoughts?

    4) Is homosexuality fixed or fluid?
    Again I am surprised how similar our understanding is here; we all know of people who have changed orientation. Some gay rights leaders point out the reason the gay gene is so contested is because if it is found, gays can have no “excuse” for their behaviour (their argument, not mine). But, and this is a strong point today, some gay leaders say people have a human right to a gay lifestyle regardless of their motivation. I have read some research shows public opinion is much less sympathetic to gay rights when people believe it is a lifestyle choice, so this would explain why the gay gene is so contested; the aim is control of legislation by gay and anti-gay lobbies.
    Now debating the morals of homosexuality is the really tough nut; if we have no agreed standard of morality we will never agree. John, if I may ask, do you believe in God and how do you get access to him? Where do you get your moral standards and is this source reliable?
    It seems apparent to me that we all seek evidence to shore up our own belief systems because it would be pretty stressful to be regulalry undermined and have to start again. Doesn’t this take us back to Pilate’s question – and yours about morality – “What is truth?”
    Best
    PB

  15. John Wright on June 21, 2006 | Permalink

    PB- I think we understand the bible differently. You want to use the bible “as a whole” – I don’t think that is a sensible or reasonable way of reading it. The bible wasn’t written as a whole – it was written in 66 pieces for many difference purposes to many different people for many different reasons. I understand your theological position, which sees the bible as God’s ‘Word’ to man rather than man’s words about God. I respect this Reformed position on the bible – it has a long and great history – and at one time I would have thought the same way about such issues. But I don’t think we’re going to be able to find common ground on how to read the bible!

    That said, there are people who take your approach to biblical hermeneutics who do not believe that the bible condemns homosexuality – indeed there are Reformed theologians who are openly gay (celebrated Baptist pastor Roy Clements springs to mind). Another group that would share your approach to biblical interpretation but disagree that the bible condemns homosexuality is this one, by Christians who see no conflict between their faith and their sexuality, and provide numerous alternative interpretations of the verses you cite.

  16. pb on June 21, 2006 | Permalink

    John
    Thanks for the intelligent discussion.
    I dont for a second expect us to agree on the authority of the bible, but can I therefore come back to my previous conclusion;
    Where do you get your moral standards how do you decide the authority of this source?
    Regarding pro-gay interpretations of the bible, it seems apparent to me that we all seek evidence to shore up our own belief systems (me included) because it would be pretty stressful to be regulalry undermined and have to start building a belief system all over again every week.
    Doesn’t this take us back to Pilate’s question – and yours about morality – “What is truth?”
    John, I am thinking out loud here…what is truth?
    Best
    PB

  17. John Wright on June 21, 2006 | Permalink

    PB- Gay Christians are regularly undermined, and this is fairly new stuff in the history of the church. They aren’t simply shoring up their belief systems, they’re challenging you to show them how and why they are wrong to be homosexual!

    The “Truth” is that you haven’t done that yet!

  18. PB on June 22, 2006 | Permalink

    John
    I am not playing down how much this happens to gays but I think it is still fair to say that just about anyone with a distinctive belief system (me included) has to intellectually defend it from ideas that would tear it down.
    I never actually said I was out to prove homosexuality is “wrong” because that was never my aim and I doubt I can do it here.
    But John you are obviously intelligent and informed and yet twice you appear to have avoided a direct question. I would be most grateful if you could answer it or perhaps even say why you won’t;-
    Where do you get your moral standards how do you decide the authority of this source?

    ie This is what I mean when I say “What is truth?”
    Best
    PB

  19. PB on June 22, 2006 | Permalink

    Sorry John
    Regarding homoseuxality being “wrong” I should try and answer you, it was just that I don’t think I have anything useful to add on this and that is why I was never going to try it on this blog.
    As far as I am aware, the only materials that would lead one to believe that it is wrong are judeo-christian texts (ie the Law and New Testament) and the Koran.
    Scientifically I understand there are quite a few research papers saying the act is very unhealthy for the body and in mental health terms the vast majority of pschologists of the 20th century believed it was a mental illness.
    These would be the type of sources I would refer to but I accept full well that they are now all hotly contested in all fields (though not by any means unanimously) and certainly not accepted by this blog
    To me this takes us back to my question yet again;
    What do you use as your moral standard for you, this blog, gays and christians like me. And how do you measure its authority over any other potential source?
    Best
    PB

  20. PB on June 22, 2006 | Permalink

    John
    I have thought again about alternative interpretations of the bible you speak of
    ie that Sodom’s sin was not “Sodomy” but lack of hospitality.
    It is my understanding these interpretations began for the first time ever in history
    with DS Bailey only in 1955 and so were never considered valid by the founders of any major Christian denomination.
    Furthermore I have checked four bible translations, all of which say the men wanted sex with the two angels. (NKJV, JB, NIV and Amp versions).
    They wanted to “know” the angels the hebrew word for which can be to know in friendship or sexually but in Genesis it is frequently used in the sexual sense.

    John, have you ever read these verses for yourself first hand and can you tell me how they
    can have a meaning other than their face values? WHile I am asking this I accept 100% that
    many people say the bible has no authority and therefore such people hold these excerpts irrelevant.
    Best
    PB

    Gen 13:13
    13 Now the men of Sodom were wicked and were sinning greatly against the LORD.

    Gen 18:20
    Then the LORD said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and
    their sin so grievous 21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is
    as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.”

    Gen 19:4
    Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we
    can have sex with them.”
    6 Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him 7 and said, “No, my friends. Don’t do this wicked thing. 8 Look, I have two daughters who
    have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don’t do anything to these men, for they have come under
    the protection of my roof.”

    New Testament, Jude 1:7
    In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who
    suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
    ENDS

  21. John Wright on June 22, 2006 | Permalink

    PB- The Sodom texts are clearly describing an attempted rape. There is no condemnation of homosexuality per se in these verses at all – rather there is an account of what took place in Sodom. The link I gave you earlier would be a better place to turn for discussing the particular proof texts though, and I’d also encourage you to have a look through Roy Clements’ essays and letters, for example the letter to his old friend John Stott, who was completely confounded by Clements’ sudden announcement, and this letter responding to a teenager named Michael who wrote to him expressing some of the same concerns that you have here, PB. Those people would be better at dealing with some of the texts than I would.

    Your question about moral standards is a complicated one, and I couldn’t do it justice here. But it’s true that we all have competing sources feeding our moral drive: reason, conscience, faith, etc. The trick is to identify which is worth listening to and why. At this point theologically I find myself somewhere in the post-evangelical Christian bloc.

  22. Stevie, Belfast on June 22, 2006 | Permalink

    Gays are not natural. Christians know this.

  23. PB on June 22, 2006 | Permalink

    John, thanks for your continued patience here.
    Will check out Clements refs with interest right now.
    I have to say it SEEMS your confirmation that Sodom was a gang rape attempt seems at odds with where you suggested earlier that Christ said Sodom’s sin was lack of hospitality???
    Also, I say with my hand on my heart, I get the sense listening to you that you are not really convinced by your own views on what source we should use for morals.
    An example of a problem I see this presenting is that in 10-20 years there may be serious efforts to legalise pedophilia. Some academics already say it is a legitimate orientation (see Wikipedia, sexual orientation entry) while there is pressure to reduce age of consent for sex.
    If we look at how the gay lobby have advanced their case in the past 30 years what is to stop the pedophile lobby doing the same as they research, publish and lobby public opinion?
    After all, there is no absolute truth to say it is “wrong” – or is there?
    Best
    PB
    PS Stevie in Belfast, please rememeber Christ died for gay people as much as for you and I. Please remember love with truth – 1Cor 13.

  24. PB on June 22, 2006 | Permalink

    John

    Checked out the website and it was quite interesting with many valid points to criticise the church regarding overconfident biblical interpretation and lack of sensitivity to gay people.

    But there also appear to be a few corking errors;

    The website says the bible does not say Sodom was detroyed for sexual sin: “The books of the prophets Ezekiel, Isaiah and Jeremiah list the specific sins for which Sodom was destroyed. They list arrogance, adultery, oppression of the poor, insincere religion and political corruption. Homosexuality is NOT mentioned. In Luke 10:10-13, Jesus clearly states that the sin of Sodom was INHOSPITALITY.”

    ERROR 1: Where you find oppression, false religion and corruption you will find many sins. But Jude 1:7 clearly states Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed PRIMARILY for perversion: “In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.”

    ERROR 2: Jesus does not clearly state the sin of Sodom was inhospitality; this is false. In fact he said it would be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgement than for the towns that rejected his disciples. No mention of hospitality whatsoever.

    ERROR 3: The website says Christ had nothing to say about homosexuality, but he explicity attested to the historical fact of judgment on Sodom and Gomorrah. With Jude confirming Sodom and Gomorrah’s sin was perversion, it is very logical to read Christ as confirming the traditionally understood reason for their judgement (only contested since 1955 I believe), but difficult to read the passage otherwise. Also, Christ reaffirmed the traditional heterosexual marrige in his teaching on divorce. He never hinted homosexuality was acceptable.

    ERROR 3: The website says: “St. Paul was suspicious, fearful and disapproving of ALL sexual acts.” Sorry but I have to say this is rubbish. Paul did say in 1 Cor 7 he would prefer people stayed single to serve the Lord freely, but he also accepted only some were gifted that way. He explicitly tells couples not to deprive one another of sex and to render due affection to one another.

    ERROR 4: And the webiste says: “No one knows how or why homosexual orientation happens.”
    I have to say even my Encyclopaedia Brittannica cites much research on the causes of homosexuality and it is simply not good enough to say nobody knows why it happens. You can’t just pretend that level of research does not exist or that it is only “feelings” as this site continues. Contest it, fine, but pretend it is not there and I have lost all intellectual respect for you.

    Also, the website brings up the old Chestnut about slavery, which I have touched on in an earlier entry above and find highly questionable, as explained.

    Overall John, I am no scholar but I expected much more from this link.
    Yours, confused.
    PB

  25. John Wright on June 22, 2006 | Permalink

    PB- I’m honestly not trying to dodge the discussion with you, but I’m struggling to find time to respond adequately. You’re asking questions which would require intensely intricate answers, and upon which many heavy books have been written. I didn’t intend to lend my endorsement to the website links I gave you PB, I simply referred you there for more detailed argument from those who don’t see a conflict between their sexual orientation and their evangelical faith. As a post-evangelical, I’m not bound by their interpretative apparatus where it concerns the bible – it’s no fun when I can simply throw away the rulebook…. In other words – you should be having this discussion with them!

    My answer to you is simply that it appears homosexual orientation happens, and while psychological considerations may be interesting academically (and if that is what you’re interested in, then there are many publications available to you to satisfy that interest), I don’t understand what harm they are causing to nonconsenting third parties like yourself, or why someone as obviously capable of rational thought as you appears to be keen to devote so much thought to what is such a non-issue. Despite what you may think, nobody is going to legalize paedophilia as a result of allowing homosexuals to live free of such condemnation – as an avid current affairs watcher I can assure you of that.

  26. PB on June 23, 2006 | Permalink

    John
    I’ll draw a line under our discussions there and sincerely thank you for your time.
    I did already drop the MCC folk an email by the way.

    Regarding what “harm” gay folk are causing me that is not the way I frame the matter.
    For me the most important point is whether the bible is true.
    I do not have “blind” faith but revisit the bible on each new issue to see if it stands up. So far I find that it does.
    But also, I am interested to see how well people with very fixed views on the matter understand the real issues, because I live in a democracy where I must live under the result of their voting.

    You said: “Despite what you may think, nobody is going to legalize paedophilia as a result of allowing homosexuals to live free of such condemnation – as an avid current affairs watcher I can assure you of that.”

    Actually John that is quite an unfair summary of what I said/meant. I did not make a cause and effect connection between gay rights and paedophilia; my point was that if we have no definitive standard of morals then pedophilia may eventually become “moral”.
    The focus was the lack of absolute morality, not gay rights campaigning.
    Finally, I just dont believe you are right on this; I do believe attempts will be made to legalize pedophilia in the near future.
    I could point you to the website of a leading UK gay rights campaigner today who wants a boy of 14 to be able to be able to legally have sex with a man. And the campaigner endorses the boy’s sex life having begun at 8 years old!
    Again John, thanks for your time and informed discussion.
    Best regards
    PB

  27. John Wright on June 23, 2006 | Permalink

    PB- Thanks for stopping by. Feel free to stick around and comment on any of the posts that grab your attention.

  28. PB on June 23, 2006 | Permalink

    PS John
    I owe you an answer, after all the time you have given me. You asked what is wrong about what two consenting adults do in private.
    My answer would be this;
    First sin is not an abstract theory. I can say from personal experience it is powerful, grim and deadly. In my own life I can described it as seductive, wholesome appearing, but it hurts those that love me, seperates me from God and from his purpose for my life. It steals time and energy from serving others as God intends, it deadens my soul, sears my conscience and warps my character.
    In Genesis we see its fault lines after the fruit was eaten, infecting every part of nature.
    I have met and known a fair number of gay people and have liked them all. I have found they often have special and positive unique qualities.
    I personally do not put their sin any more serious than mine in God’s eyes and while I do not go around preaching at them, I feel it would be a gross disservice to them if I did not, when asked (as you have done) point to the dangers of homosexuality behaviour as laid out in the Bible.
    I know the only thing I have ever found which can fight sin – Christ. May he be with us all.
    Best PB

    PPS John, right or wrong I do see you standing up for those who are often abused by loveless use of scripture and ungodly hatred – where the bible teaches love. While I do not agree with your ultimate aim, I do commend your motives, if I may do so without for a second being patronising.

  29. Cinnybon144 on June 24, 2006 | Permalink

    Homosexuality is a lifestyle choice, like would you like to go to the cinema or would you like to go for dinner. Let people be free to do what they want.

  30. Anonymous on October 3, 2006 | Permalink

    John,

    As you have employed your own definition of marriage, of course you can create an argument. Your definition of

    “a) the process of making a moral promise to another individual, possibly including a promise made to God”

    does not contain the words “between a man and a woman”.

    I don’t know what you prove by starting off with a reworked definition other than you can be consistant with yourself.

  31. John Wright on October 3, 2006 | Permalink

    Anonymous- Thanks for your comment.

    It doesn’t matter. Part (a) of my definition could include “between a man and a woman” and it would be of no consequence to my argument, because the purpose of my argument is to claim that parts (a) and (b) are separate in the first place. In other words (as I argue later) the contents of part (a) can include whatever you believe to be necessary to constitute marriage and not be incompatible with part (b).

    I hope this helps you to understand my point.

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